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borbwab
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Big Red Warrior
Posted On: 04/27/2008 09:43:06

Before DMF:Orlando, my teammates and I did some pretty exhaustive training of decks, searching for just the right one.  We decided on Halavar in late December and then we proceeded to test exhaustively. It’s kinda dumb to test a deck so far in advance, but I think we made the right play, as a 1/3 of the decks at DMF Orlando were Halavar. The deck went through many incantations before we set upon the final version we all played at the event. 

 

I personally tested the deck in some 200 matches, all with very favorable results.  In those tests, I saw a slew of decks, but there was one in particular that would just give Halavar fits.  The type of deck you have nightmares of before a big event.  You just can see yourself, sitting in the large hall, and opponent after opponent slapping their hero down, all the same.  All bad match ups.  For our Halavar, it was Warrior Control.

 

The hero of choice for warrior control was Bloody Mary, mainly for access to Cannibalize.  Her flip was useful and being able to use The Haunted Mills could generate some good draws(but ultimately, the quests where secondary to card drawing abilities like Bloodrage).

 

For those who hadn’t seen a version of Bloody Mary, I refer you here.  The deck was as mean a control deck that there ever was.  The early protectors and one of the greatest utility cards of all time Puncture bought time for a late game that presented very few ways out of.  Once Bloody Mary had dug in her heals, you where done.  The deck was a beast for rush, as they often stalled out and then once a couple copies of Withering Shout hit the table, there was very little rush could even do at the point.

 

Our Halavar was no exception.  The version we ran used Whispering Blade of Slaying/Perdition’s Blade along with the standard accompaniment of untargetable allies(with some elusive thrown in for good fun).  It varied from the Two Handed version in a couple of small ways but the game plan was relatively the same.

 

Bloody Mary had very little problem dropping a 4th turn Withering, which would spell disaster if we didn’t already have Mary’s health at least half gone.  That one Withering Shout would stop out Merrys, Teeps, and Survivors, thus also cutting us off from completing The Defias Brotherhood.  Essentially 1 card negated a 1/3 of our deck.  That’s never a good thing. 

 

We ended up tweaking Halavar, including 2 main deck Burn Aways and uping  the Puncture count to 4.  I luckily only saw one Bloody Mary at DMF Orlando(round 1), and was able to best him with a good draw.

 

Where am I going with this?  Glad you asked.  I have a point, I assure you. 

 

A few weeks back, when UDE was previewing cards on the main site, warrior was one of the first classes shown.  I think everyone who saw Sudden Death on that day could see the card’s power.  It was essentially a 2 cost, instant Vanquish.  Once the set was released, I was also greeted with the best equipment destruction card to date, Smash.  Not only does it blow up their equipment at only 2 cost and at instant speed, it also damages the opponent for whatever the cost was.  That’s like kicking someone when they’re down, but hey, it can be fun, right?

 

The only hindrance when using Sudden Death was that it forces you into the new Traitor Hero.  Would losing Cannibalize be worth the addition of Sudden Death?  That’s what I had set out to see.

 

HERO(1)

Lionar the Blood Cursed

 

ABILITIES(26)

1XDeafening Shout

3XBloodrage

4XWithering Shout

4XPuncture

4XShield Bash

3XUnraveled Plans

4XSudden Death

3XSmash

 

QUESTS(14)

2XForces of Jaedenar

4XCounterattack!

4XSwift Discipline

4XA Donation of Silk

 

EQUIPMENT(2)

2XFelsteel Reaper

 

ALLIES(18)

2XPrince Kael’thas Sunstrider

1XIshanah, High Priestess of the Aldor

1XVindicator Zalreth

2XInstructor Antheol

2XDoshura Ridestrider

2XTatulla the Reclaimer

4XXanata the Lightsworn

4XGuardian Steelhorn

 

SIDEBOARD(10)

3XDefensive Stance

1XSmash

1XUnraveled Plans

1XDoshura Risestrider

2XTatulla the Reclaimer

2XVexmaster Nar’jo

 

Control decks received some great new protectors, so of course, Xanata Lightsworn found a nice, new home in the two drop slot along side Guardian Steelhorn.  Those two alone should be enough to slow rush.  But if you’re going to win, you need to stop rush or eventually they’re swarm your defenses.  That’s why Mr. Reliable, Withering Shout, is an automatic 4 set of in this deck.

 

Instructor Antheol is another great card when facing down rush.  His ability to stop both attackers and protector warrants him the 5 drop slot.  His attack isn’t too shabby either.

 

Prince Kael’thas Sunstrider is the new big boy on the constructed block, and what with our hero being a traitor, he finds a nice spot on the end of our ally curve.  Personally, I like Prince Kael’thas over Lady Vashj because his effect has a more immediate and guaranteed effect where as Lady Vashj’s Naga Tokens can be dealt with in a myriad of ways(not to mention that your opponent might have luck of their side and you’ll roll 1’s every time).  Dropping the Prince of turn 9 or 10 can spell game over if your opponent doesn’t have at the very least some way to spend his resources.  Late game, hands are much smaller and instant speed answers are harder to find.

 

There’s one card in the deck I owe an apology to.  I’m sorry Felsteel Reaper for dismissing you when I first saw you.  I just didn’t have any idea how great you could be.  I just saw you as an over priced Tewa.  Technically, it is an overpriced Tewa but being an Equipment makes it much less susceptible to removal than Tewa’s squishy flesh.  Greatsword of Horrid Dreams is still a very popular card and with good reason.  Tewa wouldn’t even be able to enter play with one of those out, where as Felsteel Reaper is good to go. It can swing the turn it comes into play and there’s not much in the way of instant speed equipment removal other than Smash(Wreck I guess technically could be considered instant speed removal-both are Warrior abilities though).

 

The abilities in the deck are pretty well all defensive.  I’ve packed in there hate of every kind.  Allies and equipment should pose no problem what with Sudden Death/Smash/Puncture taking care of most anything that can hit the board.  For the rest(ie Abilities) I’ve got Tatulla and 3 copies of Unraveled Plans.  Shield Bashes round out the hate, being able to stop annoying problems before they even start.

 

I’ve tested this in a few match ups so far and they’re been favorable.  The biggest problem Warrior Control had back a few months ago was Burn Decks(either Boomkin or Mage Burn).  To combat burn, I’ve included 3 side board copies of Defensive Stance.  That card alone can extend you’re life span considerably.

 

I’ve tried this recently against a very fast rush, which it bested relatively easily.  I then followed it up with a heavy control match up, which is also bested pretty easy.  With the draw from Bloodrage, you should be able to pound on your opponent with consecutive fat bombs.  For example a turn 8 Ishana, turn 9 Prince, and a turn 10 Felsteel.  The goal is to not give them time to catch their breath.

 

As I always urge, try this build out. It’s one of my personal favorites right now.  It’s in the pile of decks I’ve got, all contending for the title of “My Favorite”.    It might not be on the top just yet but it’s climbing pretty quickly.  Any comments or suggestions are always appreciated, either in the comment section or via email to Borbwab@gmail.com.

 

 



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Viewing 1 - 10 out of 14 Comments


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04/30/2008 11:50:42

Oh ya, happy birthday :p

I've answered you PM on ude.com boards!

I never played Ras'fari, everyone's loving her, gotta try it out I guess!

 ~



04/30/2008 11:47:33

I agree that you have to put pressure on the Priest. Generally my strategy is to start the beats with Vexmaster and use Finkle Einhorn aggressively so that Rasfari will have protection from Melt Face (and to keep Thwarting from hurting). I fight the attrition war with an increased count of card advantage quests, and just make Rasfari extra hard to deal with.

 

Incidentally, rasfari is probably the best card in my entire deck and should probably be no less than a 3x in every copy of this build. 

 

Warrior doesn't really have to plan on ditching the Wands, since you run 12 cards that destroy them. Greench is similarly simple to kill usually. As long as you can stick a Bloodrage and provide mild pressure, the matchup is fine. Without Bloodrage it's a bit trickier, but that's what mulligans are for. Even without the Rage, perfectly playing your resources helps to keep you live.

I agree with you that Rogue seems strong.

And I've won every Big Red mirror I've played, lol. Facedown the Reapers (then side them out), and Rasfari away with Intercept to protect from Sudden Death. Sticking a Deafening SHout with a Withering Shout to defend from Tatulla is a pretty big deal. That matchup does require a lot of patience though.

Article forthcoming, eventually. Today is for drinking. 



04/30/2008 11:20:52

Generalizing is the way to point out weakenesses I thought.

 So let's take the priest match up example.

So far I found that the only way to really win vs it is to rush it faster and to counter his heals.

This works pretty nice for my rogue as I beat Laurent Pagorek's new version and Pierre Malherbaud's  at realm and regional last week-end.

I assure you that assuming you'll draw enough cards to overwhelm the priest is not the way to go.

what endgame threats can you  throw at him that he won't be able to answer?

Huge Ally = Melt face.

Tons of Allies = Bringer.

If you plan on getting rid of the wands, I think they're packing Greench's in now.

Anyway I don't think Wand is the real card to beat in the deck, wands will always be safe in their hand/deck. The easiest card to kill is actually Runetusk sitting on his poor 26 hit points.

You need to have multiple threats thrown at him, and fast, and have him not heal too much.

A warrior with a better priest match up could be an alliance one, Protectors + Myriam .

Shield bash/Shield Slam/Shouts/Puncture to get rid of the opponent's board while you slowly kill him from turn 4 to 10.

Maybe I just don't understand what's good in that horde control warrior.

Anyway so far the best deck I've found is a rogue gnome traitor aggro one. Gotta work on the Serpent's match up tho :)

Mirror games teaser :

Shouts = Shouts too! 

Ishannah = Sudden Death! 

Felsteel Reaper = Smash, you take 8! 

The one who dropped Bloodrage first will basically die from it :p 



04/30/2008 09:51:48

That is the million dollar question. What does any deck do against turn 1,2, and/or 3 protector, turn 4 Myriam? This may be the meta defining question actually. I would say that warriors have some of the best option when it comes to Myriam in that you have the ability to instantly sudden death/ intercept protector and then wreck elf face. An arguement could be made to look at mid-game weapons such as obsidian-edged blade or mass of mcgowan. Also end of turn 4 withering shout into and a t5 vexmaster isnt horrible, nonetheless anticron -- xanata --- parvink ---- myriam is a real beast.

 Magweasel, post the 10th, I would be really interested on how you approached warrior ally control as it has been in my gauntlet as well with some decent results. I think the deck has some real upsides and has some good meta cards that people are not taking advantage of. 



04/29/2008 18:47:21

My version of this deck has a very fair game one vs. Priest. I'm testing for Realms so I can't post the list in my column yet, but running Steelhorn over Vexmaster Nar'jo is criminal indeed...Your version of this deck currently scoops to a turn 4 Myriam Starcaller. That should be fixed.

 

And Fireblast, I think you are generalizing this deck's weaknesses and strengths a lot. As I said, I find Priest very beatable and only really have difficulty against Boomkin, so far.



04/29/2008 14:21:25

Seraphimscall, I'm glad that you liked the read.  You brought up several very good points which I had not given a lot of thought to.  Sometimes it's nice to see thing through other people's eyes.

 

The Bloodrage has given me the advantage over other control in the past and has not yet presented a problem in regards to me losing too much life.  I've had some close scrapes and I'm sure it's possible, all I'm saying is it just hasn't happened to me.  Bloodrage vs rush wouldn't be a very good play.

 

You're completely right on the quests.  That was one weakness this deck has had since the beginning.  Withering Shout/Swift Discipline is a nice combo, but provides no huge card draw(it actually even works against the Counterattacks!).  Orcs get the shaft with the racial spec'ed quests.  The Donations have worked well in the past because there are certain "dead" cards vs certain deck which are great fodder.

 

I also really felt you had a good point when you spoke to the evolution of decks.  Sometimes we(myself in particular) get too wrapped up in beating a deck, we'll often add things to just combat that particualr build, not seeing the bigger picture of what your additions have done to hurt your deck.   I've had to scrape many a deck because of this type of narrowmindedness.  

 

Very insightful comment  I'd like for you to check out some of the other stuff I'll be posting in the near future and let me know what you think. 



04/29/2008 10:03:57
Borwab,

This was a good read, and I think you have the right idea when it comes to warrior ally control. However, you are missing some key components to what made Bloody Mary viable back in the day.

1. Bloodrage without cannibalize/wraith scythe makes it a dead card against rush and aggro. You can't afford to put yourself on a clock you can't wind back. And like GPFault said any good meta priest discard deck will pack dispel main.

2. Quests like Haunted Mills gave the Bloody Mary deck legs. Your quest line up is not going to give you the burst of cards you will need agains t discard and other control decks.

I think this may be one of the problems with the Bloody Mary comparison. That is not to say that I think Warrior Ally Control isn't relevant (double negative aside). I guarantee that warrior control can make the priest discard match up 50/50 and still have a 60/40 against Desecrater Stormclaw. And you have made the correct assessment that Sudden Death and a superior flip is better than shield slam. But be aware that the evolution of priest discard could very well see some variation so just testing against the Stuttgart build will put someone a step behind. I think Realm Championships should be telling when it comes to meta calls (obvious statement but seemed like the thing to say).


04/29/2008 07:47:01

I'll be the first one to admit the deck's weakness to Priest Discard, which is a very popular deck at the moment.  Obviously every deck has a weakness(maybe not a weakness but at least an unfavorable matchup) and that's the reason I like WoW.  There are dominant deck types, for sure, but there are a lot of decks out there that just sort of lurk below the surface.

Would Control Warrior be a great play at Realms in a week?  Probably not.  I'd expect to see a lot of Priest out there and it's a tough match(I'd give it slightly better odds than 90-10 though, maybe like 70-30).   

When I had a Bloody Mary control together it's glaring weakness was MageBurn and that's what prevented it from being at a lot of top tables. Big Red's problem is Priests. Priests will fade as the Meta adapts(heck, Blue Shaman didn't last forever). I'd like to think Warrior Control is still viable and should, at the very least, be tested against in a gauntlet.

Ivnmetal, you're more than welcome to try the deck out.  You'll obviosuly need to adapt it to what's popular in your area.  Please drop me a line and let me how you do.

 



04/28/2008 18:48:32
Im not a real pro . on this but at least my opinion will for something. I really like the idea of this deck and the more people use priest discard,the easier it will be for this deck to eat alive. And how you said bringing out a bloodrage is nice. And I think that's the goal of winning,using bloodrage and defence stance to make the game last long and not lose any dmg from discard abilities.


I really like the deck and with permission I would like to use it :)

Take Care!


04/28/2008 18:35:02
   If Priest continues to be big, I think that Defensive Stances
   should be a 4 of, main deck.  The Defensive Stances will prevent
   the Touch of Darknesses and Mind Spikes and hopefully you can
   find and hold your Shield Bashes to prevent Mental Anguishes.

My team has done some testing of warrior control against priest discard and (good) priest discard is maindecking Dispel. And if they're not, they've at least got 4x in the side. Defensive Stance isn't nearly as good in this particular matchup as some sort of non-ability permanent on the board to force them to bringer if they want to wand you.



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