Welcome Guest Login or Signup
The Collectible Game Player Community
MY ACCOUNT -:- BLOGS -:- USERS -:- GALLERY -:- FORUM -:- GROUPS -:- POLLS -:- QUIZZES
BLOGS   WRITE NEW BLOG   EDIT BLOGS  
 
RSS
YS: How Not to Calculate Percentages
Posted On 06/26/2008 21:06:02 by MagicDrafter - Read 16718 time(s)

I really prefer not to mention Ryan Murphy's stuff again, but I just couldn't hold it. Before reading this blog, you should read his article on Makyura deck for the Traditional format. It was all swell until he started doing percentages, where everything is just really bad. Don't worry, I'll go through them.


Warning: don't read if you hate math.


1. "We already know that we’ll be doing this math out of only 36 cards, because of the three copies of both Thunder Dragon and Toon Table of Contents".


This is just wrong. Although Thunder Dragon and Toon Table of Contents usually thins out the deck by 2, there is a chance that the opening hand will contain multipl copies of Thunder Dragon and Toon Table of Contents. Let's calculate the chance of not drawing another copy of Thunder Dragon assuming the first copy has already been drawn.


So in the 6 card hand, 1 is Thunder Dragon, so 5 cards are left. The chances of the remaining 5 not being Thunder Dragons is 37/39 * 36/38 * 35/37 * 34/36 * 33/35 = 76%. That's big, but not so big it's negligible. The same result applies to Toon Table of Contents too, so it becomes even more likely that one of them will show up in multiple copies.


But let's assume it's 36 cards since it makes calculations a lot easier.


2. "With the above changes to our total deck count made, we are (in a sense) only running 25 cards."


He says this after saying Pot of Greed, Upstart Goblin, Graceful Charity, Hand Destruction and Dark World Dealings will thin 1 card each, although Hand Destruction digs through 2 cards. He also says Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity both arguable digs through more than 1 card, but it's not even arguable. Pot of Greed thins the deck by 2 and Graceful Charity thins by 3. How can this be argued? I don't know. But I'm not going to focus on this though.


Rather he goes on to say that there are 7 ways to send Makyura to the graveyard after getting it in hand. But all of those 7 ways (Graceful Charity, Hand Destruction and Dark World Dealings) are already used to thin out the deck, so if we use the assumption of 25 cards, there are no way to send Makyura from hand to graveyard.


Instead, the 7 ways should be left out and instead of 25 cards, the deck has 31 cards (36 - 3x Upstart Goblin - 2 for Pot of Greed), then do the 7 ways of discarding Makyura. This isn't perfect though since we have to take in account using several of the 7 ways to dig deeper and then recalculating the percentages. It's not that hard but it's tedious and I'm not going to do it now. The point is don't do what Ryan Murphy did.


3. "That chance is 0.16. Then we’ll have to discard him, which we can do with seven cards. The chance of that is 0.28. That brings the chances of pulling this off to a total of about five percent.


0.16 x 0.28 = 4.48%. Now with the decrease in chance as said in point number 1 of this blog, at least he could round down to 4%. But no, he rounds up, perhaps to make the deck look just a bit better. I'm not sure though.


4. "We can also simply draw Premature Burial, which is two cards out of the 25, yielding an eight percent chance of doing so. That gives every card a thirteen percent chance of sending Makyura to the graveyard: we start with six. That means our starting hand has, on average, a 78 percent chance of sending Makyura to the graveyard. Those are some incredible odds!"


I don't get this paragraph at all. First he has a typo for Foolish Burial. No biggie though. But he somehow concludes that every card has a 13% chance of sending Makyura to the graveyard. First the 5% he got from point 3 is based on using 2 cards, so how can he add the percentage of using a 2 card combo to a single card and then claim that each card ha 13%? I have to say though although this intuitively doesn't make sense to me, in the end the percentage does work out to about 78%*. His method of calculating just doesn't make sense to me, but if it works then I guess it works.


So point 4 wasn't that bad for him, but his calculations from points 1 to 3 is really messed. So that's it, and mabe this blog will remind you not to take numbers from an article without a grain of salt. If there are miscalculations in this blog, then I apologiz, but then at least you're doing the stuff in the previous sentence.


* Using his assumptions (ie. 25 cards in deck and 7 cards to send Makyura to the graveyard), and the assumption that our hand is free of Toon Table of Contents and Thunder Dragon, getting Makyura in hand is 1 - 21/25 * 20/24 * 19/23 * 18/22 * 17/21 * 16/20 = 69% and the chance of gettin a way to send it to the graveyard is 90%. That means both happening at the same time is about 62%.


For using Foolish Burial, the chance of not having Makyura in hand is 76% (1 - 6/25, since every card in opening 6 has 1/25 chance of being Makyura). Then the chance of having a Foolish Burial is 43% (similar calculation in above paragraph).


The percentage os sending Makyura to the graveyard first turn can be calculated by 1 - the percentage of not pulling the 2 card combo and not using Foolish Burial. This comes to 78%.

Tags: Yugioh Probability

Related to: Yu-Gi-Oh!



Bookmark:



Viewing 1 - 3 out of 3 Comments

07/02/2008 14:34:06

I'm going to illustrate #2 with an example because I think it's the best way to understand. Let's say I have a bag that has 2 balls, a black one and a white one. I pick up a ball at random. If it is white, I draw another ball. What's the chance of drawing a white ball?


The answer here is of course 50%, but here's the analysis using your method: there's effectively only 1 ball in the bag after thinning the number of balls by 1 (white ball), so the chance of drawing a white ball is 1 ball out of 1 ball giving me 100%. Obviously, it makes no sense.


For #4, how does having 6 cards and 13% chance having anything do with each other? The 6 cards explains the 78% chance (6 x 13%), but to obtain the 13% chance, you added the chance of pulling off a 2 card combo (with 2 cards in hand), and the chance of playing Foolish Burial in a 1 card hand. That is what is not making sense to me.



06/29/2008 10:40:58

PS- just to throw this in:

"don't read if you hate math"

Just the other day I won 50 bucks from Perovic on a bet that I could prove to him 2+2=5. Thank you Grandi.  



06/29/2008 10:39:49

ur definitely right on:

 -1:  I didn't shave off the 2-3% chance of drawing multiple copies of thunder dragon and toon table. That does mess with my math a little. 

 -2: Ur saying that me double counting my deck thinning and "makuyura sending" cards messes with my math, but I'd like to argue with you on that. Once a deck thinning card gets me to my win condition- the first task of the deck is complete. It doesn't matter if they justfiy as both. what really matters is that I'm sifting through the cards I can't play until then (obviously, traps) and getting to the win condition. I'm counting the dead cards as my deck, as every other card is a win condition or the resolution to step 1. Thus, I really don't think double counting the cards that serve multiple purposes actually affect me here.  

 -2: that first paragraph on 2- I rounded all my math on deck thinning down to purposefully compensate for all the rounding I would be doing up and the negative effects of the -1 on some of hte cards (the -1 that is obviously necessary to send makyura to the grave, but which is bad before that point arrives)

-3:  again, I was purposefully offsetting #2 above. I wasn't trying to steal the .5% there, lol.

-4:   You have 6 cards (response to opening paragraph). That's why it's 13%. 

 

Maybe I missed something here. I haven't had my morning coffee, lol.

It's great to see someone actually caring about math in the game, and taking the time to critique. If I made mistakes here (meaning a second time) or didn't explain something well (again with the coffee), I'll check up on this blog. Have a good one! 

 

 





*** MyTCGplayer ***